Comments on Presby-Musings: Staying Presbyterian

So if I understand you correctly, and it's pos...

2012-01-21T11:53:10.283-08:00

So if I understand you correctly, and it's possible I don't, you generally believe that liberal Presbyterians base their beliefs on cultural sensitivity or opinion but are willing to allow that a minority are as earnest in trying to follow Jesus as you are, even if they come out with different beliefs?

I have re-read what I wrote and I believe that I q...

2012-01-20T05:06:38.220-08:00

I have re-read what I wrote and I believe that I qualified my statements enough to allow for the possibility that while I generally believe them to be true, they are not monolithic.

"I am not so arrogant as to assume you don...

2012-01-20T04:56:46.093-08:00

"I am not so arrogant as to assume you don't read the Bible or hold theological beliefs or convictions based on your study of it, and your experience."

All I'm saying is that I would never know this from the way you repeatedly describe "liberal Presbyterians."

Shawn, what you described at the event, and what y...

2012-01-19T14:38:39.483-08:00

Shawn, what you described at the event, and what you felt is EXACTLY what I experienced in seminary, and what many conservatives continue to experience in their liberal presbyteries.

A conservative friend of mine is in the Hudson River Presbytery which is proud of it's gay activism. He is shouted down, ridiculed, mocked and made to feel as though he's an ignorant idiot on a regular basis.

We're all looking past planks while we peer in our brother's eye for a speck.

I am not so arrogant as to assume you don't read the Bible or hold theological beliefs or convictions based on your study of it, and your experience. I am sorry that you were made to feel that way. If, as you say, you don't bow to culture or test the wind, then you obviously are not who I am referring to.

I completely agree theologically with the theology document from the Fellowship and I think the polity document from the ECO is what I wish we had in the PCUSA. Still... I have decided that my vows mean a bit more to me than I once thought they did.

So you're stuck with me. Sorry, man.

As a liberal Presbyterian I don't want anyone ...

2012-01-19T13:55:35.860-08:00

As a liberal Presbyterian I don't want anyone to leave the PC(USA) because they are conservative. But here's the reason I think it is time for some conservatives to leave.

As I was at the Fellowship Under 45 event yesterday I heard the following statement repeatedly in different variations: "Liberal Presbyterians have no theological beliefs or convictions." Since I was mainly there as an observer I chose not to respond to these statements. But at one table discussion someone spoke up and said something like this:

"At Columbia I felt like the lone evangelical among liberals. My fellow students and I didn't agree theologically on much, but they aren't the people I hear being described by at this event. All of my liberal classmates had very developed theological beliefs. So I don't get how you can say they have no beliefs. They may have different beliefs than yours, and their beliefs maybe dead wrong, but they take their faith and the Bible just as seriously as you do."

I've got no problem with a family argument or wrestling match. Let's argue about scripture, theology, tradition, church history, Christian practice, etc. But don't fight dirty. Don't assume because my beliefs are different than yours that the only way I could have arrived at mine is by bowing to culture or testing the wind.

Please give me, and countless other liberal Presbyterians like me, courtesy and respect by acknowledging that our beliefs are based on our dedicated study of Scripture, earnest prayer, and trying to best pattern our life, minds and being after Jesus.

I don't care if you think I'm wrong (I'm wrong a lot), but if you say that I'm not even trying just because I come out at a different place than you, then we may be better off apart.

(For the record, I know that some liberals do the exact same thing).

I've long said that the PCUSA is what it is be...

2012-01-17T19:11:46.399-08:00

I've long said that the PCUSA is what it is because there is the wide spectrum of belief and vision and theological understanding...
I don't want you to leave.
I don't want any of the conservatives in the church to leave...because the beauty of the denomination is that we can fight and still call each other sisters and brothers.
I keep telling people, "If you're unhappy with the church, fight for it. If you leave, the only thing that will happen is that it *will* become everything that you fear."